Incidentally, are you familiar with the work of Ken WIlber, particularly Sex, Ecology, Spirituality or The Marriage of Sense and Soul? I think he’s done the best job yet for explaining why religious people accept criteria other than the scientific method for determining the validity of spiritual truth. Not trying to make a believer out of you but I thought that, in the spirit of intellectual inquiry, you’d enjoy learning more about what makes us people of faith ‘tick.’

Blessings,

Carl

“it seems to me that the atheist/agnostic critique of religion can be succinctly stated in four words: “Religious people are nasty.””

0h, no. I’m an atheist/agnostic, and that would not at all be my critique of religion. I generally liked the people I was in church with. The problem for me is simply that it isn’t true. I don’t really buy into Christianity for the same reason I don’t buy into all the other religions – not only is there no evidence when there should be, God doesn’t behave the way God “should”, and there actually seems to be evidence against them being true. They all seem to be pretty clueless. I’m sure all religions have plenty of nice people, though.

I think it’s very sad that human egoism has turned religion into an affair that is exactly the opposite of the true nature of the Divine. Our egos just can’t grasp things like endless Grace or infinite Mercy.

Why must Christians think they are the only ones with the only Right Way? Solid Christian theology tells us we can’t base Truth on one isolated scripture, but must interpret it in the light of the whole story. So “no way to the Father except through me” must have another translatable possibility. How about: “No one really comes to the realization of Abba until they do what I have done.” That would take us back to asking: “Could I too be ‘Way’, ‘Truth’, and ‘Life’?” Is Jesus my Great Example, not my Great Exception? If true, then I would want to love those who find another Way, not insist that they follow in my identical footsteps…especially when we read the rest of the Teachings of the Master.

David Ferenc (Francis David), an early Unitarian, said “We need not think alike to love alike”.

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus (340–402) said, in defending Paganism from the persecutions of Christians: “We ask, then, for peace for the gods of our fathers and of our country. It is just that all worship should be considered as one. We look on the same stars, the sky is common, the same world surrounds us. What difference does it make by what pains each seeks the truth? We cannot attain to so great a secret by one road.”

If only Christianity were not so obsessed with creeds (though I understand the historical reasons for this). If only it had taken Rammhoun Roy’s book “The Precepts of Jesus” to heart. It’s Jesus’ values that are important, not what you believe about him. If only Christians would read the whole of John ch. 14 and not just the verse that says “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, and there is no way to the Father except through me”. If only all Christians would sign up to the Phoenix Affirmations.

Happy New Year and well done for being a lovely non-exclusivist mystical Christian

There has been in many circles the past 30 years or so to sever religion from spirituality. Those that are religious are nasty as your friend says and those that are spiritual are nice. It appears to me to be a method to provide license to the individual to not join a Christian communion and be held accountable for their actions.

The truth about moral good, as that truth is declared in the law of reason, is practically and concretely recognized by the judgment of conscience, which leads one to take responsibility for the good or the evil one has done. If man does evil, the just judgment of his conscience remains within him as a witness to the universal truth of the good, as well as to the malice of his particular choice.

When one discovers something is True, they then have the obligation to act on that Truth. This is true(no bun intended) liberty [as opposed to license]. However with todays relativism most individuals prefer the latter over the former against their conscience. The conscience isn’t infallible and that’s were (at least from my communion) the church comes in to guide the individual.

Your friend likely has experienced this from the result of individuals recognizing truth and being called to act on it. The nasty part comes into play in how the Christian choses to act on that truth.

The crusades were mostly defensive not offensive causes, indeed Islam invaded all the way to Vienna in the east and close to Beligum in the west before they were stopped. Certainly the political leaders went beyond the standards of combat by todays rules of ingagement, but span of control is vastly different today.

Galileo the darling of science didn’t prove that the Earth, it was an educated guess and had he submitted to teaching his idea as a theory instead of fact, and claim to be an expert in a field he wasn’t qualified in a.ka. theologian he could have avoid that problem.

As far as atheist go, Catholics were killed at the forum in Rome for being atheist, because they denied their was more then one god. Context depends on who has the power to kill. In the 20th century & 21st century in USSR and in Red China it’s the atheist who provide the context and deem the Christian as the threat to the state, just as the heretic was a threat to the state in Christdom in the middle ages.

There’s nothing necessarily “Christian” about love and acceptance, or the social and psychological factors that produce in/outgroup dichotomies and the antagonistic behavior you describe. And there are certainly other divisive causes which can inspire hatred on both sides (the prime example being nationalism).

Love itself, though, is rare in the world, and it certainly couldn’t hurt to encourage it. Being honest, though, I don’t think I have any idea what love is. I can’t speak about idol worship, either, but I have a feeling I know what you mean.

I personally think we have a better chance of the arguments ending if we just stick everyone in isolation, or, barring that, at least just find a different game to play.

“Her lips folded themselves into a straight line, and Stella thought briefly how odd it was that thinking differently about God tended to make even the nicest people not very sympathetic towards each other.”

I join Carl in his apology to all those whom we “people of faith” have offended by our nastiness and hatred and violence. These were not the qualities which drew me to investigate the claims of Jesus in the first place, and they are not any part of His loving and gracious character. To answer Aubri, God has humbly invested his reputation in the influence of people on each other, and because of this we have the terrible power of degrading his gracious name and turning honest seekers away from him as a possible answer for their search. He can and often does over-ride this influence, but we are still accountable for how we represent Him to those who are seeking the Reality that we claim we have found in Him.

Thank God that we can repent of this and receive His forgiveness, and start again in our mission of pouring out love and grace into the world.

Blessings and love to all,
Peter