Comments on: The Epistemology of Post-Fundamentalism http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/ The fullness of joy is to behold God in all. — Julian of Norwich Sat, 31 Jul 2010 17:34:36 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Debate b/t Religion and Science: Theists, Atheists, Agnostics, Integralists « Marmalade http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/#comment-14994 Debate b/t Religion and Science: Theists, Atheists, Agnostics, Integralists « Marmalade Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:57:41 +0000 http://anamchara.com/?p=2108#comment-14994 [...] http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/ [...] [...] http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/ [...]

]]> By: Michael http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/#comment-13707 Michael Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:48:16 +0000 http://anamchara.com/?p=2108#comment-13707 Darn! And I was counting on their entheogenic qualities to assist me in encountering the Divine Mystery. Oh well, I'll just have to do it the longer and harder (but more interesting) way ... by being alive. Peace. Darn! And I was counting on their entheogenic qualities to assist me in encountering the Divine Mystery. Oh well, I’ll just have to do it the longer and harder (but more interesting) way … by being alive. Peace.

]]> By: Carl McColman http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/#comment-13706 Carl McColman Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:21:19 +0000 http://anamchara.com/?p=2108#comment-13706 Yep. You got it. And anyone who wants to go trans-rational has to go <b>through</b> rational consciousness — no bypassing allowed. Which is why "the death of the mythic God" (which is what atheism usually is about) is a necessary prerequisite to encountering the Divine Mystery (read: the trans-rational God). Regarding the mushrooms: the hallucinations should kick in after about an hour. Enjoy the trip. (JUST KIDDING!) Yep. You got it.

And anyone who wants to go trans-rational has to go through rational consciousness — no bypassing allowed. Which is why “the death of the mythic God” (which is what atheism usually is about) is a necessary prerequisite to encountering the Divine Mystery (read: the trans-rational God).

Regarding the mushrooms: the hallucinations should kick in after about an hour. Enjoy the trip. (JUST KIDDING!)

]]> By: Michael Noyes http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/#comment-13705 Michael Noyes Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:17:15 +0000 http://anamchara.com/?p=2108#comment-13705 I see. So, up the intellectual "line" the new atheists have reached levels as high as anyone, but their emotional and/or social development is rather more adolescent. A "trans-" perspective not only transcends levels but lines as well. Hey, I cooked your mushrooms this evening, with some spinach and brown rice. I looked 'em up — they're called "morels". Thanks again! I see. So, up the intellectual “line” the new atheists have reached levels as high as anyone, but their emotional and/or social development is rather more adolescent. A “trans-” perspective not only transcends levels but lines as well.

Hey, I cooked your mushrooms this evening, with some spinach and brown rice. I looked ‘em up — they’re called “morels”. Thanks again!

]]> By: Carl McColman http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/#comment-13704 Carl McColman Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:19:33 +0000 http://anamchara.com/?p=2108#comment-13704 Yes, from a postmodern perspective the narrative of science and the narrative of faith are therefore both "myths" subject to revision as new data emerges and/or new levels of consciousness are attained. I'm always amused at non-believers who insist that their "scientific" worldview is much more open to revision than the cosmologies of those benighted believers, and yet they get hostile when its pointed out to them that their narratives are, therefore, "mythic" just like everyone elses. Maybe it's a mythos grounded in rational thought -- but it's still a mythos. Rationalist consciousness usually rejects myth as "not true" because pre-rational myths don't hold up very well to rationalist inquiry. But they miss the fact that their own myths likewise don't hold up very well to trans-rationalist inquiry... According to Wilber's theory, human beings have different "lines" of consciousness development. I see a "militant atheist" as an example of this: while their cognitive world-view is rationalist, their emotional and power needs, particularly as projected/directed toward theists, is more indicative of mythic-membership: in which those in "my" tribe (i.e. the non-believers) are seen as inherently superior to those outside "my" tribe (i.e., believers). Yes, from a postmodern perspective the narrative of science and the narrative of faith are therefore both “myths” subject to revision as new data emerges and/or new levels of consciousness are attained. I’m always amused at non-believers who insist that their “scientific” worldview is much more open to revision than the cosmologies of those benighted believers, and yet they get hostile when its pointed out to them that their narratives are, therefore, “mythic” just like everyone elses. Maybe it’s a mythos grounded in rational thought — but it’s still a mythos. Rationalist consciousness usually rejects myth as “not true” because pre-rational myths don’t hold up very well to rationalist inquiry. But they miss the fact that their own myths likewise don’t hold up very well to trans-rationalist inquiry…

According to Wilber’s theory, human beings have different “lines” of consciousness development. I see a “militant atheist” as an example of this: while their cognitive world-view is rationalist, their emotional and power needs, particularly as projected/directed toward theists, is more indicative of mythic-membership: in which those in “my” tribe (i.e. the non-believers) are seen as inherently superior to those outside “my” tribe (i.e., believers).

]]> By: Michael http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/#comment-13703 Michael Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:07:22 +0000 http://anamchara.com/?p=2108#comment-13703 That's why I love you, Carl! But atheist mythologies? Like theories of evolution or the Big Bang? Human beings think in terms of narrative; we tell stories. Is this what you mean? Surely you are not saying there is not a substantive difference between the stories of scientists and those of conservative Christians? Is a 4.5 billion year old earth and a 6,000 year old earth equally yarns of fiction? You must be saying something else. Mythic-membership consciousness? Maybe you're simply referring to pig-headed, judgmental ass-holes. That’s why I love you, Carl!

But atheist mythologies? Like theories of evolution or the Big Bang? Human beings think in terms of narrative; we tell stories. Is this what you mean? Surely you are not saying there is not a substantive difference between the stories of scientists and those of conservative Christians? Is a 4.5 billion year old earth and a 6,000 year old earth equally yarns of fiction? You must be saying something else.

Mythic-membership consciousness? Maybe you’re simply referring to pig-headed, judgmental ass-holes.

]]> By: Carl McColman http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/#comment-13678 Carl McColman Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:36:54 +0000 http://anamchara.com/?p=2108#comment-13678 You're right. There's no pleasing them. Mythic-membership consciousness takes no prisoners — whether it is theistic or atheistic in its orientation. Although... I suppose the same impulse that keeps me from giving up on fundamentalist theists demands that I offer the same degree of hope to the militant atheists. After all, both groups <i>equally</i> despise what <i>I</i> stand for! :-) You’re right. There’s no pleasing them. Mythic-membership consciousness takes no prisoners — whether it is theistic or atheistic in its orientation.

Although…

I suppose the same impulse that keeps me from giving up on fundamentalist theists demands that I offer the same degree of hope to the militant atheists. After all, both groups equally despise what I stand for! :-)

]]> By: Michael http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/#comment-13677 Michael Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:32:08 +0000 http://anamchara.com/?p=2108#comment-13677 Reformation from within? Are you referring to more progressive and inclusive brands? The militants don't like those either, as according to them liberal Christians and Jews are guilty of aiding and abetting. But that's to be expected, I suppose — they are militants, after all! Reformation from within? Are you referring to more progressive and inclusive brands? The militants don’t like those either, as according to them liberal Christians and Jews are guilty of aiding and abetting. But that’s to be expected, I suppose — they are militants, after all!

]]> By: Carl McColman http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/#comment-13675 Carl McColman Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:53:27 +0000 http://anamchara.com/?p=2108#comment-13675 Forgive me if it sounded like I was saying "all atheists would immediately become believers if only they had access to better theology." By the same token, I think it might be interesting for the militants to consider those currents within religion that seek reformation from within, often in response to the very problems within religion that arouse the ire of the militants. Maybe it won't make believers out of them, but perhaps it will serve to lessen some of the hostility. One can only hope. Forgive me if it sounded like I was saying “all atheists would immediately become believers if only they had access to better theology.” By the same token, I think it might be interesting for the militants to consider those currents within religion that seek reformation from within, often in response to the very problems within religion that arouse the ire of the militants. Maybe it won’t make believers out of them, but perhaps it will serve to lessen some of the hostility. One can only hope.

]]> By: Michael http://anamchara.com/2009/07/15/the-epistemology-of-post-fundamentalism/#comment-13674 Michael Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:48:01 +0000 http://anamchara.com/?p=2108#comment-13674 I suppose the militants could come up with a list of names and such, telling you about each god in turn and the reasons for their disbelief (hmmmm ... disbelief: actively not believing; unbelief: passively not believing). But likely they would not believe in the god that the questioner affirms either, whether that faith is according to a more recent theology or not, don't you think? Having said that, Andre Comte-Sponville, in his "The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality," describes the Universe, the All, as the "God" of sorts on which even atheists and mystics can probably agree. I suppose the militants could come up with a list of names and such, telling you about each god in turn and the reasons for their disbelief (hmmmm … disbelief: actively not believing; unbelief: passively not believing). But likely they would not believe in the god that the questioner affirms either, whether that faith is according to a more recent theology or not, don’t you think?

Having said that, Andre Comte-Sponville, in his “The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality,” describes the Universe, the All, as the “God” of sorts on which even atheists and mystics can probably agree.

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