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	<title>Comments on: Actual Event or Metaphorical Story?</title>
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	<description>The fullness of joy is to behold God in all. — Julian of Norwich</description>
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		<title>By: Leslie</title>
		<link>http://anamchara.com/2009/12/28/actual-event-or-metaphorical-story/#comment-15424</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leslie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 17:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anamchara.com/?p=2751#comment-15424</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yep.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl McColman</title>
		<link>http://anamchara.com/2009/12/28/actual-event-or-metaphorical-story/#comment-15398</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carl McColman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anamchara.com/?p=2751#comment-15398</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If myth itself is &quot;always concrete,&quot; then why do you say that the myth &quot;needs the concrete events&quot;? That seems counter-intuitive to me. I fully agree with Berdyaev; and I am reminded of an Episcopal priest who once proclaimed from the pulpit, &quot;If archaeologists found the bones of Jesus of Nazareth, I would still believe.&quot; That is the heart of the mythic approach to Christianity. My either/or position, as I stated above, is grounded in an honest humility that says &quot;I really don&#039;t know,&quot; and is intended less as a cop-out (although I know it looks that way) and more as a spacious willingness to choose faith even without &quot;being sure.&quot; I think arguing for certitude of the mythic reading of the Gospel can be just as deadening as arguing for only a literal reading of the text.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If myth itself is &#8220;always concrete,&#8221; then why do you say that the myth &#8220;needs the concrete events&#8221;? That seems counter-intuitive to me. I fully agree with Berdyaev; and I am reminded of an Episcopal priest who once proclaimed from the pulpit, &#8220;If archaeologists found the bones of Jesus of Nazareth, I would still believe.&#8221; That is the heart of the mythic approach to Christianity. My either/or position, as I stated above, is grounded in an honest humility that says &#8220;I really don&#8217;t know,&#8221; and is intended less as a cop-out (although I know it looks that way) and more as a spacious willingness to choose faith even without &#8220;being sure.&#8221; I think arguing for certitude of the mythic reading of the Gospel can be just as deadening as arguing for only a literal reading of the text.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Hayes</title>
		<link>http://anamchara.com/2009/12/28/actual-event-or-metaphorical-story/#comment-15392</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Hayes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 05:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anamchara.com/?p=2751#comment-15392</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I find the either/or approach difficult. I agree with Nicolas Berdyaeve when he says &lt;blockquote&gt;
Myth is a reality immeasurably greater than concept. It is high time that we stopped identifying myth with invention, with the illusions of primitive mentality, and with anything, in fact, which is essentially opposed to reality... The creation of myths among peoples denotes a real spiritual life, more real indeed than that of abstract concepts and rational thought. Myth is always concrete and expresses life better than abstract thought can do; its nature is bound up with that of symbol. Myth is the concrete recital of events and original phenomena of the spiritual life symbolized in the natural world, which has engraved itself on the language memory and creative energy of the people... it brings two worlds together symbolically.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It is modernity that demands certitude from a &quot;literal&quot; understanding, but the myth also needs the concrete events.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find the either/or approach difficult. I agree with Nicolas Berdyaeve when he says<br />
<blockquote>
Myth is a reality immeasurably greater than concept. It is high time that we stopped identifying myth with invention, with the illusions of primitive mentality, and with anything, in fact, which is essentially opposed to reality&#8230; The creation of myths among peoples denotes a real spiritual life, more real indeed than that of abstract concepts and rational thought. Myth is always concrete and expresses life better than abstract thought can do; its nature is bound up with that of symbol. Myth is the concrete recital of events and original phenomena of the spiritual life symbolized in the natural world, which has engraved itself on the language memory and creative energy of the people&#8230; it brings two worlds together symbolically.</p></blockquote>
<p>It is modernity that demands certitude from a &#8220;literal&#8221; understanding, but the myth also needs the concrete events.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff S.</title>
		<link>http://anamchara.com/2009/12/28/actual-event-or-metaphorical-story/#comment-15390</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff S.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 22:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anamchara.com/?p=2751#comment-15390</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really like your comment - &quot;When I hold both of these contingencies together, it is enough for me to say “yes” to the call to believe.&quot;  I have a wife that hold more of a poetic viewpoint of the Bible and she believes wholeheartly in Christ love, life, death, and ressurection.  I am learning a lot from her looking at the word of G-d from a different direction, one that is more mystical in nature, which doesn&#039;t change one&#039;s convictions but should enlighten ones mind and experience with G-d.  As you can see I am a complete Jew by the way I traditionally don&#039;t spell out GOD.  

Thank you for a good read.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like your comment &#8211; &#8220;When I hold both of these contingencies together, it is enough for me to say “yes” to the call to believe.&#8221;  I have a wife that hold more of a poetic viewpoint of the Bible and she believes wholeheartly in Christ love, life, death, and ressurection.  I am learning a lot from her looking at the word of G-d from a different direction, one that is more mystical in nature, which doesn&#8217;t change one&#8217;s convictions but should enlighten ones mind and experience with G-d.  As you can see I am a complete Jew by the way I traditionally don&#8217;t spell out GOD.  </p>
<p>Thank you for a good read.</p>
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		<title>By: Sue</title>
		<link>http://anamchara.com/2009/12/28/actual-event-or-metaphorical-story/#comment-15389</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sue]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 22:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anamchara.com/?p=2751#comment-15389</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Holy agnosis, Batman.  Thanks for this, Carl.   I am finding this current period quite difficult.  God feels SO far away, maybe not even there at all, maybe a once-illusion of a mind that needed some certainty.

And yet even typing that, that&#039;s not quite it either.  What this feels like is a season.  What&#039;s out the other side of that?  I do not know.

Sometimes I wonder if a life lived on the edges of faith means that sometimes you almost feel like you&#039;re losing it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Holy agnosis, Batman.  Thanks for this, Carl.   I am finding this current period quite difficult.  God feels SO far away, maybe not even there at all, maybe a once-illusion of a mind that needed some certainty.</p>
<p>And yet even typing that, that&#8217;s not quite it either.  What this feels like is a season.  What&#8217;s out the other side of that?  I do not know.</p>
<p>Sometimes I wonder if a life lived on the edges of faith means that sometimes you almost feel like you&#8217;re losing it.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Rawls</title>
		<link>http://anamchara.com/2009/12/28/actual-event-or-metaphorical-story/#comment-15388</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe Rawls]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 21:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anamchara.com/?p=2751#comment-15388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Eastern churches see the Incarnation primarily as God uniting in love with his creation.  The Atonement is certainly not denied or even shuffled off to one side, but the union of God/humanity and the overcoming of death through Jesus&#039; very bodily resurrection are of utmost importance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Eastern churches see the Incarnation primarily as God uniting in love with his creation.  The Atonement is certainly not denied or even shuffled off to one side, but the union of God/humanity and the overcoming of death through Jesus&#8217; very bodily resurrection are of utmost importance.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://anamchara.com/2009/12/28/actual-event-or-metaphorical-story/#comment-15386</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[George]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anamchara.com/?p=2751#comment-15386</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Carl, Thank you for what I found to be a very satisfying answer. Once that articulated pretty accurately my own feelings. It is a relief to simply say, I just don&#039;t know, yet live a life of faith, hope, and love. I was born Roman Catholic and continue on this path in some way because, for lack of a better phrase, believes it makes me a better person and gives me an orientation to navigate life. I have wrestled with the dominant atonement theology of vicarious/substitutionary atonement for years, quite honestly coming to a head with Mel Gibson&#039;s Passion of the Christ, which for me was the death knell of any subscription to that theology. Love your post and blog.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Carl, Thank you for what I found to be a very satisfying answer. Once that articulated pretty accurately my own feelings. It is a relief to simply say, I just don&#8217;t know, yet live a life of faith, hope, and love. I was born Roman Catholic and continue on this path in some way because, for lack of a better phrase, believes it makes me a better person and gives me an orientation to navigate life. I have wrestled with the dominant atonement theology of vicarious/substitutionary atonement for years, quite honestly coming to a head with Mel Gibson&#8217;s Passion of the Christ, which for me was the death knell of any subscription to that theology. Love your post and blog.</p>
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		<title>By: lightandstorm</title>
		<link>http://anamchara.com/2009/12/28/actual-event-or-metaphorical-story/#comment-15385</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lightandstorm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anamchara.com/?p=2751#comment-15385</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have the same feeling as you do in regards to being uncertain as to whether the story is literally true or not...although I lean towards no.  But for me, that question doesn&#039;t even really matter and is often a distraction.  It keeps people holding on to a particular event in time and space, one that happened long ago.  In that sense we are displaced from it, we are far away.  It doesn&#039;t have as much impact as it should.  

It doesn&#039;t really matter to me whether people believe the literal aspect of it, but I do hope that the mythic message, the symbolism, the mysticism, and the existentialism of it comes through regardless.  It is only when the strict adherence to the literal preempts the personal, universal, eternal message that I worry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have the same feeling as you do in regards to being uncertain as to whether the story is literally true or not&#8230;although I lean towards no.  But for me, that question doesn&#8217;t even really matter and is often a distraction.  It keeps people holding on to a particular event in time and space, one that happened long ago.  In that sense we are displaced from it, we are far away.  It doesn&#8217;t have as much impact as it should.  </p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t really matter to me whether people believe the literal aspect of it, but I do hope that the mythic message, the symbolism, the mysticism, and the existentialism of it comes through regardless.  It is only when the strict adherence to the literal preempts the personal, universal, eternal message that I worry.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl McColman</title>
		<link>http://anamchara.com/2009/12/28/actual-event-or-metaphorical-story/#comment-15384</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carl McColman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 15:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anamchara.com/?p=2751#comment-15384</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael: I don&#039;t think you idolize certitude, at least not anymore. Perhaps you have a part of you that wishes things were that cut and dried; don&#039;t we all! That&#039;s our place of deep existential insecurity. That&#039;s the part of us to which Christ speaks when he says, &quot;Be not afraid.&quot;

Yvonne: You&#039;re right on target with the question of how we interpret the cross. I consciously tried to avoid poking at that hornet&#039;s nest in my post; but I should figure that one of my many smart and thoughtful readers would stir it up for me.  :-)  Indeed, beyond the question of what we believe regarding the &lt;i&gt;historicity&lt;/i&gt; of the cross and resurrection is the far more vexing question of how we &lt;i&gt;interpret&lt;/i&gt; the Passion: what does it mean, what does it say about God, what does it say about us. My guide here is Julian of Norwich, who saw it strictly in terms of an expression of suffering love, without any sense of substitutionary atonement. But as you point out, many others see it quite differently.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael: I don&#8217;t think you idolize certitude, at least not anymore. Perhaps you have a part of you that wishes things were that cut and dried; don&#8217;t we all! That&#8217;s our place of deep existential insecurity. That&#8217;s the part of us to which Christ speaks when he says, &#8220;Be not afraid.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yvonne: You&#8217;re right on target with the question of how we interpret the cross. I consciously tried to avoid poking at that hornet&#8217;s nest in my post; but I should figure that one of my many smart and thoughtful readers would stir it up for me.  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />   Indeed, beyond the question of what we believe regarding the <i>historicity</i> of the cross and resurrection is the far more vexing question of how we <i>interpret</i> the Passion: what does it mean, what does it say about God, what does it say about us. My guide here is Julian of Norwich, who saw it strictly in terms of an expression of suffering love, without any sense of substitutionary atonement. But as you point out, many others see it quite differently.</p>
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		<title>By: Yewtree</title>
		<link>http://anamchara.com/2009/12/28/actual-event-or-metaphorical-story/#comment-15383</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Yewtree]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 14:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anamchara.com/?p=2751#comment-15383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Carl, I really admire your honesty about your uncertainty, your holy agnosis.  

Personally I am sure that if the resurrection &lt;em&gt;was&lt;/em&gt; literally true, then I would subscribe to &lt;a href=&quot;http://khanya.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/salvation-and-atonement/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Christus Victor theology&lt;/a&gt; rather than vicarious atonement, as it is much more humane; but I think that a physical resurrection from the dead is extremely unlikely.  Therefore I regard it as a metaphor.  Also, the story of Christ seems to draw on a number of similar stories about the death and resurrection of god-men (e.g. Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Orpheus), which clearly relate to the psychological aspects of the spiritual journey -- the death of the ego and its rebirth in a new form that is more in balance with the rest of the psyche.  On this level, the story is valuable; whereas, when taken literally, it seems quite harmful, especially when couched in terms of vicarious atonement or penal substitution.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl, I really admire your honesty about your uncertainty, your holy agnosis.  </p>
<p>Personally I am sure that if the resurrection <em>was</em> literally true, then I would subscribe to <a href="http://khanya.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/salvation-and-atonement/" rel="nofollow">Christus Victor theology</a> rather than vicarious atonement, as it is much more humane; but I think that a physical resurrection from the dead is extremely unlikely.  Therefore I regard it as a metaphor.  Also, the story of Christ seems to draw on a number of similar stories about the death and resurrection of god-men (e.g. Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Orpheus), which clearly relate to the psychological aspects of the spiritual journey &#8212; the death of the ego and its rebirth in a new form that is more in balance with the rest of the psyche.  On this level, the story is valuable; whereas, when taken literally, it seems quite harmful, especially when couched in terms of vicarious atonement or penal substitution.</p>
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